Marx,
The solution I am suggesting, laissez-faire capitalism, has never been a reality in this or any other country. The closest we ever got to the ideal was perhaps the Andrew Jackson Administration. Every example you site [once again!] is not an example of laissez faire OR CAPITALISM. What I am advocating is CHANGE. You [and anybody who voted happily on November 4th ] are a conservative, voting to preserve the status-quo quid pro quo! The goddamned “corporate giants” you rail against were created by the political entrepreneurs and the politicians who regulated and trust-busted the competition right out of the market place.
Corporations didn’t even exist in the 19th Century. Failed airlines, car-makers and financial institutions are subsidized and bailed out by politicians with tax-payer money. I’m not going to say this again: ANYTHING IN EXISTENCE THAT YOU DON’T LIKE ABOUT THE ECONOMY WAS CAUSED BY SOME FORM OF GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION IN THE ECONOMY. In a free market, failure is punished by reality...no subsidies, no bailouts. Because there are real consequences, there is less failure.
You know, man had never set foot on the moon before the Apollo missions. All of the problems that made that trip possible had to be solved before anyone could actually experience a stroll on the lunar surface. We were successful because our answers were correct IN THEORY. We proved our theories correct when we actually accomplished the mission. Had we never launched Apollo 11, our theories would remain correct. The truth is not always tried.
You criticize me for reading books? In fact, I’ve read hundreds since the last time we met. If not for trade and the sharing of knowledge, there would be no reason for men to live in communities or cooperate with each other at all. We’d all be better off on desert islands free to do whatever the hell we please. Of course I learn from books...really great books. I keep lessons that I determine are of value, discard others for reasons, and, in the end, form my own opinions. Every word I have written has come straight out of my head. You seem to be arguing one can only know something if he has actually experienced it. You made the same sort of arguments when we debated face-to-face 12 years ago. For example: You hate the Reagan Administration. Why? Because you personally were denied a college loan. I remember everything, Marx.
Collusion is another cynical myth that doesn’t exist for long if markets are left alone. If colluders attempt to hold prices artificially high for any length of time, competitors enter the market place and sell the same good or service for less. The colluders are A. forced to lower their prices, or B. go out of business. If McDs, BK, and Wendy’s got together and decided to raise their prices by 50%, that would be a boon for Checkers and Jack-in-the-Box. If ALL fast food burger joints in existence joined the cartel, I’d open Tracy Burgers and make a fortune! You really know almost nothing about free enterprise, Marx. You believe every pack of lies the political entrepreneurs and politicians have sold you...they are after all the ones who control our ridiculous public school curricula. Is Florida Memorial a public school?
Your thoughts on the Tylenol story are just disgusting.
Donn
Sunday, April 26, 2009
Sunday, April 19, 2009
Yellow Dog [Part 23]
Donn,
So, let me get this straight, YOUR method of divorcing politicians from corporations is to DEREGULATE them? Now, you MUST realize how ludicrous that sounds.
Marx
Marx,
No. It makes perfect sense to me. Reality is the best arbiter. Government force in the market place changes that reality irrevocably, extending the life of bad players who happen to have buddies in Washington, among other things.
In a laissez-faire capitalist system bad players are weeded out by their better, more efficient competitors. Consumers benefit as the best products win and prices drop. If the economy is free and there is money to be made in any industry, fast food, for example, the original “monopolist,” McDonalds, will soon have no choice but to compete with the new players. Prices will drop [“buy one, get one free”], choices will multiply, quality will improve across the board as McDs, BK, Wendys, Checkers, Jack-in-the-Box, etc. all compete for your burger-buying dollar. Each would grow its menu to serve their diverse clientele and try to capitalize on some new niche in the market...adding breakfast, baked potatoes, chili, salads. Product safety is first and foremost in the mind of the producer in any food-producing industry. If people get sick eating at Burger King, Burger King won’t last long. They will rightly fail...go out of business. In a free market bad players don’t last long.
[Remember poisoned Tylenol? Their excellent product was nearly destroyed by a terrorist act. They responded by inventing product safety seals. You have to penetrate layers of security before you can actually take a Tylenol pill. That security was not mandated by government! It was invented by the capitalist producers of the product for a very rational, selfish reason: to protect their own livelihood. If people die taking your medicine, you won’t be in business long.]
Cost cutting is absolutely necessary if you want to survive the challenges presented by your competitors, but not at the expense of the business. If you cut cost where consumer safety is at issue, you won’t be in business for long.
Because the fast food industry was left alone free from interference by the politicians, others discovered unique opportunities to make money using the idea of the original “monopolist.” Eventually, consumers are able to purchase Mexican food, Chinese food, Cuban food, Health food—FAST, without even having to get out of their cars!
All of the health and diversity, efficiency and safety, of the fast food industry could be true of every industry in existence—including health care and energy—if the politicians were disarmed, forbidden from manipulating free markets.
Finally, politicians would have no corruption to peddle to the lobbyists in Washington if they were powerless to screw with just, free markets.
The only legitimate functions of government with regards to the economy are 1. the enforcement of lawful contracts and the settling of contractual disputes; and 2. to punish criminal behavior, like fraud, criminal negligence, libel, etc.
Donn
Donn,
Dude, you keep saying that but it just hasn’t worked out that way. White is black, black is white. In order to regulate we must deregulate. I’m sorry, that’s sheer insanity. Deregulation NEVER works out to be the best for society. I'll give you the latest example here in Florida. Used to be, when you wanted a motorcycle endorsement for your license, you went down to the DMV, plopped down 20 bucks, took the written test, then the driving test and you got it. Seems that JEB passed a law to take that AWAY from the DMV and give it to private, independent contractors. They said it would make cheaper and more efficient. Guess what it cost me? $265.00 PLUS I had to STILL give the 20 dollars to the DMV to issue me a replacement license. AND, I had to sit there and listen to a forced sales pitch from Harley Davidson for credit. I called ALL the competitors and, somehow, that’s the price they arrived at, the SAME price, what a remarkable coincidence, huh? THAT’S called collusion an THATS what you get when you deregulate. Why aren’t there gas companies out there selling gas for a significant cheaper price? Because first, they got to be too big, drove the smaller companies out of business and then the 3 or 4 more remaining colluded together to arrive at THAT price. Do you know what gas costs in China? About 1.50 a gallon, because Sinopec is ONLY allowed to make a certain amount of profit. You have two choices here, either government controls and regulates industry or industry buys and sells government. Seems to me, as China reaps TRILLIONS and TRILIONS in debt that we owe THEM, that maybe we'd better start getting our own house in order first. Finally, you keep saying bad business forces out bad competitors, not so, in fact, BIG bad business leads to corporations buying media outlets, bribing reporters to hide facts, buying scientists to say what they want them to say and WE never know any better and keep doing the same bad behaviors because we don’t have a clue. Your facts, your opinions are based, entirely on what someone said to you, or what you read but there haven’t been any examples where it seems to work that way or none that you can see for yourself. Tylenol? Really, how do YOU know that’s what happened? Did YOU perform the scientific tests or did some government scientists? Maybe Tylenol did it themselves, maybe it was simply a bad batch but they were big enough to buy the media outlets. Maybe they DESERVED to go out of business but didn’t because they were big enough. Who does total laissez faire policies help? No one but the corporate giants, the big wigs with hundreds of million dollar bonuses. Everybody else gets screwed.
Marx
So, let me get this straight, YOUR method of divorcing politicians from corporations is to DEREGULATE them? Now, you MUST realize how ludicrous that sounds.
Marx
Marx,
No. It makes perfect sense to me. Reality is the best arbiter. Government force in the market place changes that reality irrevocably, extending the life of bad players who happen to have buddies in Washington, among other things.
In a laissez-faire capitalist system bad players are weeded out by their better, more efficient competitors. Consumers benefit as the best products win and prices drop. If the economy is free and there is money to be made in any industry, fast food, for example, the original “monopolist,” McDonalds, will soon have no choice but to compete with the new players. Prices will drop [“buy one, get one free”], choices will multiply, quality will improve across the board as McDs, BK, Wendys, Checkers, Jack-in-the-Box, etc. all compete for your burger-buying dollar. Each would grow its menu to serve their diverse clientele and try to capitalize on some new niche in the market...adding breakfast, baked potatoes, chili, salads. Product safety is first and foremost in the mind of the producer in any food-producing industry. If people get sick eating at Burger King, Burger King won’t last long. They will rightly fail...go out of business. In a free market bad players don’t last long.
[Remember poisoned Tylenol? Their excellent product was nearly destroyed by a terrorist act. They responded by inventing product safety seals. You have to penetrate layers of security before you can actually take a Tylenol pill. That security was not mandated by government! It was invented by the capitalist producers of the product for a very rational, selfish reason: to protect their own livelihood. If people die taking your medicine, you won’t be in business long.]
Cost cutting is absolutely necessary if you want to survive the challenges presented by your competitors, but not at the expense of the business. If you cut cost where consumer safety is at issue, you won’t be in business for long.
Because the fast food industry was left alone free from interference by the politicians, others discovered unique opportunities to make money using the idea of the original “monopolist.” Eventually, consumers are able to purchase Mexican food, Chinese food, Cuban food, Health food—FAST, without even having to get out of their cars!
All of the health and diversity, efficiency and safety, of the fast food industry could be true of every industry in existence—including health care and energy—if the politicians were disarmed, forbidden from manipulating free markets.
Finally, politicians would have no corruption to peddle to the lobbyists in Washington if they were powerless to screw with just, free markets.
The only legitimate functions of government with regards to the economy are 1. the enforcement of lawful contracts and the settling of contractual disputes; and 2. to punish criminal behavior, like fraud, criminal negligence, libel, etc.
Donn
Donn,
Dude, you keep saying that but it just hasn’t worked out that way. White is black, black is white. In order to regulate we must deregulate. I’m sorry, that’s sheer insanity. Deregulation NEVER works out to be the best for society. I'll give you the latest example here in Florida. Used to be, when you wanted a motorcycle endorsement for your license, you went down to the DMV, plopped down 20 bucks, took the written test, then the driving test and you got it. Seems that JEB passed a law to take that AWAY from the DMV and give it to private, independent contractors. They said it would make cheaper and more efficient. Guess what it cost me? $265.00 PLUS I had to STILL give the 20 dollars to the DMV to issue me a replacement license. AND, I had to sit there and listen to a forced sales pitch from Harley Davidson for credit. I called ALL the competitors and, somehow, that’s the price they arrived at, the SAME price, what a remarkable coincidence, huh? THAT’S called collusion an THATS what you get when you deregulate. Why aren’t there gas companies out there selling gas for a significant cheaper price? Because first, they got to be too big, drove the smaller companies out of business and then the 3 or 4 more remaining colluded together to arrive at THAT price. Do you know what gas costs in China? About 1.50 a gallon, because Sinopec is ONLY allowed to make a certain amount of profit. You have two choices here, either government controls and regulates industry or industry buys and sells government. Seems to me, as China reaps TRILLIONS and TRILIONS in debt that we owe THEM, that maybe we'd better start getting our own house in order first. Finally, you keep saying bad business forces out bad competitors, not so, in fact, BIG bad business leads to corporations buying media outlets, bribing reporters to hide facts, buying scientists to say what they want them to say and WE never know any better and keep doing the same bad behaviors because we don’t have a clue. Your facts, your opinions are based, entirely on what someone said to you, or what you read but there haven’t been any examples where it seems to work that way or none that you can see for yourself. Tylenol? Really, how do YOU know that’s what happened? Did YOU perform the scientific tests or did some government scientists? Maybe Tylenol did it themselves, maybe it was simply a bad batch but they were big enough to buy the media outlets. Maybe they DESERVED to go out of business but didn’t because they were big enough. Who does total laissez faire policies help? No one but the corporate giants, the big wigs with hundreds of million dollar bonuses. Everybody else gets screwed.
Marx
Sunday, April 12, 2009
Yellow Dog [Part 22]
Donn,
HAHAHAHAHA... Your answer to reduce corporate influence on our politicians is to allow corporations to do what they want?? MORE Laissez Faire Capitalism?? And you think, somehow, they'll stop giving money to the policy makers and the holders of the USA's purse strings all on their own? Sorry, that’s SO contradictory I actually had to laugh out loud on that one.
Marx
Marx,
You laugh....And Nero fiddled while Rome burned. The economic crisis we are in today was created by your over-regulated economy...politicians in bed with corporations. Your cynicism prevents you from seeing the solution. The solution is liberty and rational, healthy self-interest. I’m suggesting we take away the purse...give the politicians an allowance to be used to fund the proper functions of government, period.
Donn
Donn,
I laugh because setting them free will ONLY do what it did in the era of robber barons, regardless of your bias, it was H E L L to be someone who wasn’t one of the top 1%. You let those guys do what they want and they won’t STOP what it was that has been so profitable for them, they'll do it more. Geez man, use your common sense
Marx
Marx,
By marrying them off to the politicians you have only made them more powerful... invincible! for christsake. Now, they can get a politician to CLUB the goddamned competition to death. Now, they no longer have to produce a better product, cheaper...all they need is a politician in Washington to back them up and they can serve up anything they want and you have to eat it...Eat it big time when their party is over. When their party's over these POLITICAL ENTREPRENUERS get their politician buddies to use the club again and bail them OUT!!! Who's lacking common sense?? You trust the goddamned politicians [who produce nothing and live extremely well, most in the top 1%] and damn the honest capitalist who just wants to sell his product to people who willingly choose to trade with him.
Donn
Donn,
The same "honest entrepreneurs" that turned the Cuyahoga river into a cesspool so horrific that it used to catch fire? Or the ones that sold cigarettes to the public while hiding damning scientific data so that people like my mother would be suffering from emphysema in her 70s? Maybe you mean the ones that produced the Corvair, designed so poorly that all it took was a bump from behind and it would turn into a blazing fireball but, the company felt that the amount of claims filed against it that would be successful was actually LESS costly then fixing the problem?? Wanna talk about the "love canal"?? Maybe what the pig farms are doing to South Carolina?? I could go on and on. The truth is, you dont regulate, they'll simply do a cost analysis before they EVER do anything and then, ONLY then, if cost of DOING something actually outweighs the costs of NOT doing anything. Its not ME that wants corporations to be married to politicians, its YOU. Geez man, use your common sense, why, in gods name would they EVER stop greasing politicians’ hands UNLESS there are LAWS forbidding it? I SUPPORT CAMPAIGN REFORM!!!!
Marx
Marx,
Reform? Give me a break. There are tons of laws on the books forbidding businessmen to grease politicians. You think the politicians are going to willingly give up the goose? No way. They reform campaign finance and people discover line 527...nothing changes. In fact it's worse [by your standards]. The soft-money is now given to unregulated private entities who can say and do whatever they want free from Congressional or FEC oversight.
Unless the divorce is final and the change systemic, i.e. a complete separation of government and the economy, the politicians and their business buddies will continue to sleep together, screwing all of us.
The examples you site are examples of political entrepreneurs, once again. Capitalism hasn't existed in this country for over a century. You'll have to find examples from the 19th Century if you want to prove your point to me. Every example you site happened WHILE the businessman and the politician were married...the source of the corruption. If you own the police, you can commit a lot of crimes and not have to worry about just consequences.
Besides, I said rational self-interest. In a free market the bad players are weeded out. They don't stay in business long. The damage they create is mitigated by the competition. In essence business IS REGULATED...It's regulated by the PRIVATE SECTOR: 1. your competition will let the public know you're a dirt-bag; 2. consumer watchdog groups will provide venues for people who were harmed by your activities; 3. the courts will still exist...class action lawsuits would still happen to weed out fraud and abuse. I'm not talking about lawlessness, MARX!
Did you know you can buy industry-certified lumber? I don't remember the name of the private entity that conducts the oversight, but Jared Diamond explains what they do in his book Collapse. The certification ensures consumers that the lumber they are buying was produced by a company that practices "silviculture," the planting of trees [like crops] to replace this renewable resource as it is consumed. Another great example of how the private sector weeds out bad players by educating consumers [rather than government FORCE] is the tuna industry. I don't care how much more it costs. I only buy dolphin-safe tuna.
The only reason the tobacco industry was able to lie and cheat and survive was because the industry was PROTECTED by Washington! You must know this! Few industries had as much clout on Capital Hill than the tobacco industry. Another reason they survive is because of people like me: We know about the dangers. We know it's not good for us. We do it anyway. [Sorry to hear about your mother.] Another industry in bed with the politicians is the auto industry...Have you ever seen the movie Tucker: the man and his dream? A great true story that makes my point well. Government is the only entity in existence that can sustain and enrich bad players. ONLY government has the CLUB to force competition out of the market place!
As long as government has the power to determine who gets to compete, there is no capitalism in this country. If you're not happy about the way the economy works these past 100 years or so, government intervention is the poison you rail against [even as you ask for more poison].
Donn
HAHAHAHAHA... Your answer to reduce corporate influence on our politicians is to allow corporations to do what they want?? MORE Laissez Faire Capitalism?? And you think, somehow, they'll stop giving money to the policy makers and the holders of the USA's purse strings all on their own? Sorry, that’s SO contradictory I actually had to laugh out loud on that one.
Marx
Marx,
You laugh....And Nero fiddled while Rome burned. The economic crisis we are in today was created by your over-regulated economy...politicians in bed with corporations. Your cynicism prevents you from seeing the solution. The solution is liberty and rational, healthy self-interest. I’m suggesting we take away the purse...give the politicians an allowance to be used to fund the proper functions of government, period.
Donn
Donn,
I laugh because setting them free will ONLY do what it did in the era of robber barons, regardless of your bias, it was H E L L to be someone who wasn’t one of the top 1%. You let those guys do what they want and they won’t STOP what it was that has been so profitable for them, they'll do it more. Geez man, use your common sense
Marx
Marx,
By marrying them off to the politicians you have only made them more powerful... invincible! for christsake. Now, they can get a politician to CLUB the goddamned competition to death. Now, they no longer have to produce a better product, cheaper...all they need is a politician in Washington to back them up and they can serve up anything they want and you have to eat it...Eat it big time when their party is over. When their party's over these POLITICAL ENTREPRENUERS get their politician buddies to use the club again and bail them OUT!!! Who's lacking common sense?? You trust the goddamned politicians [who produce nothing and live extremely well, most in the top 1%] and damn the honest capitalist who just wants to sell his product to people who willingly choose to trade with him.
Donn
Donn,
The same "honest entrepreneurs" that turned the Cuyahoga river into a cesspool so horrific that it used to catch fire? Or the ones that sold cigarettes to the public while hiding damning scientific data so that people like my mother would be suffering from emphysema in her 70s? Maybe you mean the ones that produced the Corvair, designed so poorly that all it took was a bump from behind and it would turn into a blazing fireball but, the company felt that the amount of claims filed against it that would be successful was actually LESS costly then fixing the problem?? Wanna talk about the "love canal"?? Maybe what the pig farms are doing to South Carolina?? I could go on and on. The truth is, you dont regulate, they'll simply do a cost analysis before they EVER do anything and then, ONLY then, if cost of DOING something actually outweighs the costs of NOT doing anything. Its not ME that wants corporations to be married to politicians, its YOU. Geez man, use your common sense, why, in gods name would they EVER stop greasing politicians’ hands UNLESS there are LAWS forbidding it? I SUPPORT CAMPAIGN REFORM!!!!
Marx
Marx,
Reform? Give me a break. There are tons of laws on the books forbidding businessmen to grease politicians. You think the politicians are going to willingly give up the goose? No way. They reform campaign finance and people discover line 527...nothing changes. In fact it's worse [by your standards]. The soft-money is now given to unregulated private entities who can say and do whatever they want free from Congressional or FEC oversight.
Unless the divorce is final and the change systemic, i.e. a complete separation of government and the economy, the politicians and their business buddies will continue to sleep together, screwing all of us.
The examples you site are examples of political entrepreneurs, once again. Capitalism hasn't existed in this country for over a century. You'll have to find examples from the 19th Century if you want to prove your point to me. Every example you site happened WHILE the businessman and the politician were married...the source of the corruption. If you own the police, you can commit a lot of crimes and not have to worry about just consequences.
Besides, I said rational self-interest. In a free market the bad players are weeded out. They don't stay in business long. The damage they create is mitigated by the competition. In essence business IS REGULATED...It's regulated by the PRIVATE SECTOR: 1. your competition will let the public know you're a dirt-bag; 2. consumer watchdog groups will provide venues for people who were harmed by your activities; 3. the courts will still exist...class action lawsuits would still happen to weed out fraud and abuse. I'm not talking about lawlessness, MARX!
Did you know you can buy industry-certified lumber? I don't remember the name of the private entity that conducts the oversight, but Jared Diamond explains what they do in his book Collapse. The certification ensures consumers that the lumber they are buying was produced by a company that practices "silviculture," the planting of trees [like crops] to replace this renewable resource as it is consumed. Another great example of how the private sector weeds out bad players by educating consumers [rather than government FORCE] is the tuna industry. I don't care how much more it costs. I only buy dolphin-safe tuna.
The only reason the tobacco industry was able to lie and cheat and survive was because the industry was PROTECTED by Washington! You must know this! Few industries had as much clout on Capital Hill than the tobacco industry. Another reason they survive is because of people like me: We know about the dangers. We know it's not good for us. We do it anyway. [Sorry to hear about your mother.] Another industry in bed with the politicians is the auto industry...Have you ever seen the movie Tucker: the man and his dream? A great true story that makes my point well. Government is the only entity in existence that can sustain and enrich bad players. ONLY government has the CLUB to force competition out of the market place!
As long as government has the power to determine who gets to compete, there is no capitalism in this country. If you're not happy about the way the economy works these past 100 years or so, government intervention is the poison you rail against [even as you ask for more poison].
Donn
Sunday, April 5, 2009
Yellow Dog [Part 21]
Marx Wrote: The only thing you’ve done is convince me that, if you look hard enough, you can find "evidence" to support any point of view. You have a habit of relegating ANYONE that you don’t agree with to "talented fabulist," for example, Michael Moore and the person that you blame for the designation of "Robber Barons" [Ida Tarbell]. I’m gonna tell you the ONE truth that you'll ever hear in this world that we live in: “there is precious little reality in our individual realities." Anyone can find anything to support the views that they have, some of it may very well be true but there is NO way to tell what is and what isn’t true. It all depends on "faith" and I really don’t have much of that in any of our news, educational materials, texts or even (with the advent of Photoshop) photographic records.
Marx,
My most important points require no empirical evidence at all. They require a profound respect for the human capacity to reason devoid of faith, emotions, mystic revelation...and the irrational personal biases created by humans who feel rather than think. For example, anti-capitalists feel everybody should have everything they need including 21st Century health care. They believe that a person’s need for something crucial, like life-saving pharmaceuticals, gives a person a right to them. I require NO empirical evidence, NO anecdotal evidence, NO media or textbooks, to demonstrate the pure evil of this supposition. I need ONLY reason and a profound respect for the rights of individuals to KNOW that nobody has a right to anything that was produced by somebody else.
21st Century health care is produced by people who: spend ten years in school mastering most difficult curricula; investors putting millions of their own money on the line with the expectation that Merc will develop the next “miracle drug” and they will rightly profit. Anyone who produces anything, owns the result of their productive work. No one can rationally place any demand on them to hand it over without compensation. In a moral and just society productive individuals TRADE with one another, value for value. All values are determined by two parties: the producer and the consumer. Without this moral equation our society is relegated to institutionalized gang rule. The majority of people [those who did not produce the life-saving medicine] sic the government on the producers. Government uses force to extort these 21st Century health care products from their rightful owners... Everybody in the health care industry becomes a slave to the state. How do you justify this extortion? You say: People need health care. Justice be damned! We’re all in this thing for the good of the community, so the individual rights of the producers be damned!
Now, my nihilist friend, answer my argument. No stories about the failed health care system we have in place here in the US, please. What we have is not capitalism. Like housing, banking, energy and nearly every other industry, government designed the health care system we have in place today. Try to give me a rational argument to justify “free health care for all.” If the rights of individuals are sacrificed to make your argument work, you have not created a rational argument.
Donn
Donn,
I have never said everyone should have free healthcare and I don’t recall anyone I know or anyone I support supporting "free healthcare for all." I DO support affordable healthcare for everyone, regardless or pre-existing conditions or whether some arbitrary insurance adjustor deems it’s ok for YOU to have healthcare. Healthcare costs are out of control and BEFORE you blame the legal system, take a look at the obscene profits the health insurance companies make. My brother does NOT have healthcare insurance because he's a truck driver and he cannot afford more than a thousand dollars a month for him and his wife. I think a gainfully employed, hardworking man should be able to afford healthcare. It should NOT be the domain of the wealthy or those lucky enough to have employer provided healthcare and THAT’S what’s happening. Do YOU think this is an unreasonable position? Then you’re out of touch with what private healthcare insurance agencies cost, you’ve been on state provided healthcare TOO long and you don’t know what OTHERS are going through. MEANWHILE, a friend recently stayed at a hospital for three days for some minor surgery. His bill came back at about 15,000 dollars!!! BUT, get this, it said....Insurance Company Discount 13,000... money paid by insurance company, 2000...money owed... 0.00.. DUDE, what the HECK is that??? They give a 13,000 discount to the insurance company?? But expect an uninsured individual to pay the WHOLE 13,000 ... that’s insane!!!
Marx
Marx,
If you want abundance of any good or service, if you want innovation and creativity in the market place in any industry, don’t ask Washington to “solve” the problem.
Donn
Donn,
Our politicians veer, slightly to the left and some slightly to the right but none are really interested in anything other than where their next campaign contribution is coming from, USUALLY, that’s from the corporations.
Marx,
Marx,
Laissez faire capitalism is the only solution to the problem you site. If you want to remove corporate influence in Washington over night, remove politicians from the market place. Abolish the 16th Amendment and take away that huge pot of gold the politicians extorted from the producers and 30,000 lobbyists are out of work. They’re there in Washington, lobbying, for their piece of a pie that shouldn’t even exist! People who think like you created the problem by encouraging and empowering government to manipulate free markets AND when everything you’ve created blows up in our faces, you go back to the politicians, who injected the poison into the body in the first place, AND WHAT DO YOU DO? You ask for more poison!!
Unbelievable that you can not see this truth.
Donn
Marx,
My most important points require no empirical evidence at all. They require a profound respect for the human capacity to reason devoid of faith, emotions, mystic revelation...and the irrational personal biases created by humans who feel rather than think. For example, anti-capitalists feel everybody should have everything they need including 21st Century health care. They believe that a person’s need for something crucial, like life-saving pharmaceuticals, gives a person a right to them. I require NO empirical evidence, NO anecdotal evidence, NO media or textbooks, to demonstrate the pure evil of this supposition. I need ONLY reason and a profound respect for the rights of individuals to KNOW that nobody has a right to anything that was produced by somebody else.
21st Century health care is produced by people who: spend ten years in school mastering most difficult curricula; investors putting millions of their own money on the line with the expectation that Merc will develop the next “miracle drug” and they will rightly profit. Anyone who produces anything, owns the result of their productive work. No one can rationally place any demand on them to hand it over without compensation. In a moral and just society productive individuals TRADE with one another, value for value. All values are determined by two parties: the producer and the consumer. Without this moral equation our society is relegated to institutionalized gang rule. The majority of people [those who did not produce the life-saving medicine] sic the government on the producers. Government uses force to extort these 21st Century health care products from their rightful owners... Everybody in the health care industry becomes a slave to the state. How do you justify this extortion? You say: People need health care. Justice be damned! We’re all in this thing for the good of the community, so the individual rights of the producers be damned!
Now, my nihilist friend, answer my argument. No stories about the failed health care system we have in place here in the US, please. What we have is not capitalism. Like housing, banking, energy and nearly every other industry, government designed the health care system we have in place today. Try to give me a rational argument to justify “free health care for all.” If the rights of individuals are sacrificed to make your argument work, you have not created a rational argument.
Donn
Donn,
I have never said everyone should have free healthcare and I don’t recall anyone I know or anyone I support supporting "free healthcare for all." I DO support affordable healthcare for everyone, regardless or pre-existing conditions or whether some arbitrary insurance adjustor deems it’s ok for YOU to have healthcare. Healthcare costs are out of control and BEFORE you blame the legal system, take a look at the obscene profits the health insurance companies make. My brother does NOT have healthcare insurance because he's a truck driver and he cannot afford more than a thousand dollars a month for him and his wife. I think a gainfully employed, hardworking man should be able to afford healthcare. It should NOT be the domain of the wealthy or those lucky enough to have employer provided healthcare and THAT’S what’s happening. Do YOU think this is an unreasonable position? Then you’re out of touch with what private healthcare insurance agencies cost, you’ve been on state provided healthcare TOO long and you don’t know what OTHERS are going through. MEANWHILE, a friend recently stayed at a hospital for three days for some minor surgery. His bill came back at about 15,000 dollars!!! BUT, get this, it said....Insurance Company Discount 13,000... money paid by insurance company, 2000...money owed... 0.00.. DUDE, what the HECK is that??? They give a 13,000 discount to the insurance company?? But expect an uninsured individual to pay the WHOLE 13,000 ... that’s insane!!!
Marx
Marx,
If you want abundance of any good or service, if you want innovation and creativity in the market place in any industry, don’t ask Washington to “solve” the problem.
Donn
Donn,
Our politicians veer, slightly to the left and some slightly to the right but none are really interested in anything other than where their next campaign contribution is coming from, USUALLY, that’s from the corporations.
Marx,
Marx,
Laissez faire capitalism is the only solution to the problem you site. If you want to remove corporate influence in Washington over night, remove politicians from the market place. Abolish the 16th Amendment and take away that huge pot of gold the politicians extorted from the producers and 30,000 lobbyists are out of work. They’re there in Washington, lobbying, for their piece of a pie that shouldn’t even exist! People who think like you created the problem by encouraging and empowering government to manipulate free markets AND when everything you’ve created blows up in our faces, you go back to the politicians, who injected the poison into the body in the first place, AND WHAT DO YOU DO? You ask for more poison!!
Unbelievable that you can not see this truth.
Donn
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